Big stacks, better than normal-sized stacks?

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:09

Napisano przez zombieyeti, 24.03.2014 at 09:39

^^^^^^^

It seems to me that you guys are trying to address two questions in one experiment:
1) how rolls are calculated
2) whether large numbers of troops influence rolls

Perhaps it would be better (and easier) to first address question #1. I seem to remember reading somewhere that rolls were NOT equal probability of obtaining results within the range of the attack/defense rating (i.e. equal chance of 1,2,3,4,5,6 for attack 6), but rather were somehow the compounded result of two rolls (higher chance of 3 and 4 - lower chance of 1 and 6). Removing criticals from experiment #1 could be useful to facilitate interpretation of results (by using militia for example).

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Were those neutral INFs? If so, I think they don't get the city bonus (so 6, not 7 defense). So you have 400 offense vs. 300 defense. Also, in that example, you have a total of 700hp attacking and only 350hp defending. Even if the defender was PD (total defense 450), the hp difference still is too large. I would assume you would need something like twice the defense to compensate for having only half the hp.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 08:40

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Were those neutral INFs? If so, I think they don't get the city bonus (so 6, not 7 defense). So you have 400 offense vs. 300 defense. Also, in that example, you have a total of 700hp attacking and only 350hp defending. Even if the defender was PD (total defense 450), the hp difference still is too large. I would assume you would need something like twice the defense to compensate for having only half the hp.

Hp has nothing to do with that. Both attacking bomber and defending neutral inf has SAME hp and SAME attack/defense values. Total army hp is unimportant if combat is done on unit per unit basis (as I count only lost attackers).

http://atwar-game.com/home/units.php

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 09:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 08:40

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Were those neutral INFs? If so, I think they don't get the city bonus (so 6, not 7 defense). So you have 400 offense vs. 300 defense. Also, in that example, you have a total of 700hp attacking and only 350hp defending. Even if the defender was PD (total defense 450), the hp difference still is too large. I would assume you would need something like twice the defense to compensate for having only half the hp.

Hp has nothing to do with that. Both attacking bomber and defending neutral inf has SAME hp and SAME attack/defense values. Total army hp is unimportant if combat is done on unit per unit basis (as I count only lost attackers).

http://atwar-game.com/home/units.php

You are a completly noob if you think hp has nothing to do.

7 attack bomber vs 6 defense infantry.

If you remove luck, 1 bomber will kill 2 infantry, before a 3th infantry kills it, and each 7 cycles it will take 2 extra infantry to kill a bomber.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 09:43

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 09:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 08:40

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Were those neutral INFs? If so, I think they don't get the city bonus (so 6, not 7 defense). So you have 400 offense vs. 300 defense. Also, in that example, you have a total of 700hp attacking and only 350hp defending. Even if the defender was PD (total defense 450), the hp difference still is too large. I would assume you would need something like twice the defense to compensate for having only half the hp.

Hp has nothing to do with that. Both attacking bomber and defending neutral inf has SAME hp and SAME attack/defense values. Total army hp is unimportant if combat is done on unit per unit basis (as I count only lost attackers).

http://atwar-game.com/home/units.php

You are a completly noob if you think hp has nothing to do.

7 attack bomber vs 6 defense infantry.

If you remove luck, 1 bomber will kill 2 infantry, before a 3th infantry kills it, and each 7 cycles it will take 2 extra infantry to kill a bomber.

I suggest you to learn to read before calling other people noobs. Bomber by default has an attack value of 6 (if you had actually taken time to check the link I posted, it's clearly written there). And 1 bomber won't kill 2 inf all the time cause rolls are non-deterministic. And luck only affects a chance to roll a critical hit.

I can't really understand how people actually get to level 9 without even understanding the basic mechanics.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 10:19

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 09:43

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 09:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 08:40

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 00:20

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 24.03.2014 at 08:26

Heh. Combat system is bugged. This explains my losses, where pure maths would indicate a win (bigger combined defense should usually win against smaller combined offense both sides having same hp units, e.g. 100 attacking infs have 400 offense, 50 defending infs in a city - 450).

Were those neutral INFs? If so, I think they don't get the city bonus (so 6, not 7 defense). So you have 400 offense vs. 300 defense. Also, in that example, you have a total of 700hp attacking and only 350hp defending. Even if the defender was PD (total defense 450), the hp difference still is too large. I would assume you would need something like twice the defense to compensate for having only half the hp.

Hp has nothing to do with that. Both attacking bomber and defending neutral inf has SAME hp and SAME attack/defense values. Total army hp is unimportant if combat is done on unit per unit basis (as I count only lost attackers).

http://atwar-game.com/home/units.php

You are a completly noob if you think hp has nothing to do.

7 attack bomber vs 6 defense infantry.

If you remove luck, 1 bomber will kill 2 infantry, before a 3th infantry kills it, and each 7 cycles it will take 2 extra infantry to kill a bomber.

I suggest you to learn to read before calling other people noobs. Bomber by default has an attack value of 6 (if you had actually taken time to check the link I posted, it's clearly written there). And 1 bomber won't kill 2 inf all the time cause rolls are non-deterministic. And luck only affects a chance to roll a critical hit.

I can't really understand how people actually get to level 9 without even understanding the basic mechanics.

I apologize, didnt read the comment u did before the one i quoted, but how is me getting wrong the attack of a unit (which i dont use unless using SM) to HP? I clearly stated that HP is a factor that shoudnt be ignored.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Luck = Critical

Infantry has 5% chances of getting a critical
Lucky infantry upgrade gives them a extra 2%

Each time the infantry (with upgrade) takes its turn to roll the dice, thr infantry will have 7% chances of doing Twice their original attack, in this case the original attack by default is 4 (unless you are using a general which gives them +1)

Luck is not static, its changes at the course of the battle, for example:

If player A has 10 infantry and uses them to Attack 10 infantry of player B, player A already has a 7% luck adventage because he is the first to roll, but by default both players have a total luck potential of 70% (7% per infantry), each time a player loses 1 infantry his total luck potential will decrease by 7%

So lets assume that player A first roll doesn't kill any of player B infantry, then player B rolls and kills 1 infantry of player A, now player A lost 7% luck potential value. A player effectively loses their total luck potential value when his last unit with critical dies.

Total Potential luck represents the odds of at least 1 unit unit having a critical (twice their attack/deff) during 1 roll. Luck is more devastating when a unit has 7 or more (attk/deff) due to the habilitty of killing more than 2 units.

In theory a stack of 20 infantry has 140% total luck potential, while a stack of 10 infantry only has 70%.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 11:45

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Luck = Critical

Infantry has 5% chances of getting a critical
Lucky infantry upgrade gives them a extra 2%

Each time the infantry (with upgrade) takes its turn to roll the dice, thr infantry will have 7% chances of doing Twice their original attack, in this case the original attack by default is 4 (unless you are using a general which gives them +1)

Luck is not static, its changes at the course of the battle, for example:

If player A has 10 infantry and uses them to Attack 10 infantry of player B, player A already has a 7% luck adventage because he is the first to roll, but by default both players have a total luck potential of 70% (7% per infantry), each time a player loses 1 infantry his total luck potential will decrease by 7%

So lets assume that player A first roll doesn't kill any of player B infantry, then player B rolls and kills 1 infantry of player A, now player A lost 7% luck potential value. A player effectively loses their total luck potential value when his last unit with critical dies.

Total Potential luck represents the odds of at least 1 unit unit having a critical (twice their attack/deff) during 1 roll. Luck is more devastating when a unit has 7 or more (attk/deff) due to the habilitty of killing more than 2 units.

In theory a stack of 20 infantry has 140% total luck potential, while a stack of 10 infantry only has 70%.

No, you understand luck wrong. Luck is also counted per unit, so 7% chance for a unit, not cumulative 70% chance if you have 10 units.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:47

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 11:45

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Luck = Critical

Infantry has 5% chances of getting a critical
Lucky infantry upgrade gives them a extra 2%

Each time the infantry (with upgrade) takes its turn to roll the dice, thr infantry will have 7% chances of doing Twice their original attack, in this case the original attack by default is 4 (unless you are using a general which gives them +1)

Luck is not static, its changes at the course of the battle, for example:

If player A has 10 infantry and uses them to Attack 10 infantry of player B, player A already has a 7% luck adventage because he is the first to roll, but by default both players have a total luck potential of 70% (7% per infantry), each time a player loses 1 infantry his total luck potential will decrease by 7%

So lets assume that player A first roll doesn't kill any of player B infantry, then player B rolls and kills 1 infantry of player A, now player A lost 7% luck potential value. A player effectively loses their total luck potential value when his last unit with critical dies.

Total Potential luck represents the odds of at least 1 unit unit having a critical (twice their attack/deff) during 1 roll. Luck is more devastating when a unit has 7 or more (attk/deff) due to the habilitty of killing more than 2 units.

In theory a stack of 20 infantry has 140% total luck potential, while a stack of 10 infantry only has 70%.

No, you understand luck wrong. Luck is also counted per unit, so 7% chance for a unit, not cumulative 70% chance if you have 10 units.

No, you clearly don't understand what Total Potential means, i was referring to the entire battle.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 12:15

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:47

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 11:45

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Luck = Critical

Infantry has 5% chances of getting a critical
Lucky infantry upgrade gives them a extra 2%

Each time the infantry (with upgrade) takes its turn to roll the dice, thr infantry will have 7% chances of doing Twice their original attack, in this case the original attack by default is 4 (unless you are using a general which gives them +1)

Luck is not static, its changes at the course of the battle, for example:

If player A has 10 infantry and uses them to Attack 10 infantry of player B, player A already has a 7% luck adventage because he is the first to roll, but by default both players have a total luck potential of 70% (7% per infantry), each time a player loses 1 infantry his total luck potential will decrease by 7%

So lets assume that player A first roll doesn't kill any of player B infantry, then player B rolls and kills 1 infantry of player A, now player A lost 7% luck potential value. A player effectively loses their total luck potential value when his last unit with critical dies.

Total Potential luck represents the odds of at least 1 unit unit having a critical (twice their attack/deff) during 1 roll. Luck is more devastating when a unit has 7 or more (attk/deff) due to the habilitty of killing more than 2 units.

In theory a stack of 20 infantry has 140% total luck potential, while a stack of 10 infantry only has 70%.

No, you understand luck wrong. Luck is also counted per unit, so 7% chance for a unit, not cumulative 70% chance if you have 10 units.

No, you clearly don't understand what Total Potential means, i was referring to the entire battle.

There is no such thing as total potential. You probably mean total probability of a critical chance happening once (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability). Yet it does depend on amount of units actually participating in combat, not on the sheer army size. If 10 infs were fighting probability that the critical strike happened is higher than if there was only 1 inf, but that's all.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 12:54

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 12:15

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:47

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 11:45

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 11:10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Ok, here is our current understanding of AW mechanics (which might be inadequate).

Let's say there is a unit A with 7 hp and attack power of 6 and a unit B with same hp (7) and defense of 6. Unit A attacks unit B.

Unit A rolls first and it rolls between 1 and 6. If the hit is not a critical hit, this is the amount of damage it deals to the defending unit. However, if this hit is a critical hit, the amount of damage dealt = rolled hit + maximum damage (in our case 6). Dealt damage is subtracted from unit B health. If dealt damage is bigger than the remaining HP of the defending unit, this unit dies and remaining damage is transferred to the following defending unit. Now the defending unit rolls and same calculations are performed using that unit defense values. The cycle repeats until one of the sides is destroyed.

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Luck = Critical

Infantry has 5% chances of getting a critical
Lucky infantry upgrade gives them a extra 2%

Each time the infantry (with upgrade) takes its turn to roll the dice, thr infantry will have 7% chances of doing Twice their original attack, in this case the original attack by default is 4 (unless you are using a general which gives them +1)

Luck is not static, its changes at the course of the battle, for example:

If player A has 10 infantry and uses them to Attack 10 infantry of player B, player A already has a 7% luck adventage because he is the first to roll, but by default both players have a total luck potential of 70% (7% per infantry), each time a player loses 1 infantry his total luck potential will decrease by 7%

So lets assume that player A first roll doesn't kill any of player B infantry, then player B rolls and kills 1 infantry of player A, now player A lost 7% luck potential value. A player effectively loses their total luck potential value when his last unit with critical dies.

Total Potential luck represents the odds of at least 1 unit unit having a critical (twice their attack/deff) during 1 roll. Luck is more devastating when a unit has 7 or more (attk/deff) due to the habilitty of killing more than 2 units.

In theory a stack of 20 infantry has 140% total luck potential, while a stack of 10 infantry only has 70%.

No, you understand luck wrong. Luck is also counted per unit, so 7% chance for a unit, not cumulative 70% chance if you have 10 units.

No, you clearly don't understand what Total Potential means, i was referring to the entire battle.

There is no such thing as total potential. You probably mean total probability of a critical chance happening once (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_total_probability). Yet it does depend on amount of units actually participating in combat, not on the sheer army size. If 10 infs were fighting probability that the critical strike happened is higher than if there was only 1 inf, but that's all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/potential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiality_and_Actuality

If you can't understand what "total" and "potential" + "luck" means, then stop posting in this topic.
Now go home, you drunk. I am waiting for somebody with a proper argument to debunk my theory.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that 1000 units should have the same results than 100 and 10, which is impossible if you take in effect the factor of luck, therefore your entire argument is wrong.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 13:28

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Now it was obvious that if there is a huge difference in the numbers of the fighting forces, some of that forces would not participate in battle because all calculations were thought to be performed unit per unit basis sequentially (e.g. defending force will die earlier than your 100th unit would participate in a combat). However, it was noticed from our observations that the sheer size of attacking force somehow matters but we do not understand how yet.

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but it seems to me that there should be a huge difference between 10 and 100 bombers. You would expect 100 bombers to kill all of the defending INF on round 1. However, a 10 bomber vs. 10 INF battle would last more than 1 round. The INF surviving to round two would thus deal additional damage. IMO, the number of bombers lost per total number of bombers should follow a logarithmic curve with the difference approaching a minimum loss when the stack size increases.

My assumption is that all attackers and defenders participate in the battle simultaneously (every round). Are you making a different assumption?

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

Napisano przez zombieyeti, 25.03.2014 at 02:34

- Please remember, the experiments were an afterthought. We all knew how AW Battle Mechanics were (supposed to) work. Then Alex gets a crazy idea that big stacks work better than the theory says they should. Want to but a battle calculator?
- Observational data indicated that the battle mechanics work, as expected, for attackers/players/large stacks, when attacking defenders/neutrals/small stacks.
- Due to the *large* number of 1's rolled by neutrals/defense, the defender damage is not likely the compound result of two fair dice, unless one of the die rolls has a high liklihood of rolling 'zero'.
In an abstract sense, one can look at a damage roll as the compound value of of two dice, die one is normal damage (1 to n, where n is attack or defend), die two is a d100, and if the roll is at or under critical, the max damage of n is added to normal damage.
- Criticals were removed from experiment #1, defender subset. They weren't removed from experiment #1, attacker data, because:
a) I was bad and can't find the data for attackers. All I have is the summary result.
b) Not a concern anyway, because the results for attackers were in line with expectations (Total Damage expected 3.8, Total Damage Observed: 4.3. Variance of 10% in 126 rolls)

It occurs to me that you might mean 'test #1' as outlined above. In the new tests, rolls will not be directly observed, just how many units die when equivalent quantities attack equivalent quantities.
Trinig says Hi, BTW.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 13:41

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 10:55

Simply speaking, we expected that whether it's 10 bombers, 100 bombers or 1000 bombers attacking 10 infantries, the amount of bombers lost is the same and should average to 10.

This is impossible due to luck, and again stop putting words in my mouth that i haven't said, i never say "total possibility" i said: " total potential"

Potential means that it CAN be, and it COULD not.

Also i never said that all units will have 70% potential, i said that all the infantry togheter had it, aka the odds of critical happening in 1 battle.


Edited: a critical is most likely to happen in a battle of 100 vs 100 than in a battle of 10 vs 10

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:39

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 13:28

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but it seems to me that there should be a huge difference between 10 and 100 bombers. You would expect 100 bombers to kill all of the defending INF on round 1. However, a 10 bomber vs. 10 INF battle would last more than 1 round. The INF surviving to round two would thus deal additional damage. IMO, the number of bombers lost per total number of bombers should follow a logarithmic curve with the difference approaching a minimum loss when the stack size increases.

My assumption is that all attackers and defenders participate in the battle simultaneously (every round). Are you making a different assumption?

Yes, of course. Just read the links which were posted by zombieyeti or set combat on slow speed and spectate.

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 13:53

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:39

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 13:28

Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but it seems to me that there should be a huge difference between 10 and 100 bombers. You would expect 100 bombers to kill all of the defending INF on round 1. However, a 10 bomber vs. 10 INF battle would last more than 1 round. The INF surviving to round two would thus deal additional damage. IMO, the number of bombers lost per total number of bombers should follow a logarithmic curve with the difference approaching a minimum loss when the stack size increases.

My assumption is that all attackers and defenders participate in the battle simultaneously (every round). Are you making a different assumption?

Yes, of course. Just read the links which were posted by zombieyeti or set combat on slow speed and spectate.

Huh, so you are operating on a different assumption? I've read zombi's posts (not links) and have been following this thread with interest since the beginning. It was never clear to me that you or zombi were operating on a different assumption...

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 13:43

Napisano przez zombieyeti, 25.03.2014 at 02:34

- Please remember, the experiments were an afterthought. We all knew how AW Battle Mechanics were (supposed to) work. Then Alex gets a crazy idea that big stacks work better than the theory says they should. Want to but a battle calculator?
- Observational data indicated that the battle mechanics work, as expected, for attackers/players/large stacks, when attacking defenders/neutrals/small stacks.
- Due to the *large* number of 1's rolled by neutrals/defense, the defender damage is not likely the compound result of two fair dice, unless one of the die rolls has a high liklihood of rolling 'zero'.
In an abstract sense, one can look at a damage roll as the compound value of of two dice, die one is normal damage (1 to n, where n is attack or defend), die two is a d100, and if the roll is at or under critical, the max damage of n is added to normal damage.
- Criticals were removed from experiment #1, defender subset. They weren't removed from experiment #1, attacker data, because:
a) I was bad and can't find the data for attackers. All I have is the summary result.
b) Not a concern anyway, because the results for attackers were in line with expectations (Total Damage expected 3.8, Total Damage Observed: 4.3. Variance of 10% in 126 rolls)

It occurs to me that you might mean 'test #1' as outlined above. In the new tests, rolls will not be directly observed, just how many units die when equivalent quantities attack equivalent quantities.
Trinig says Hi, BTW.

Lol @ Trinig.

on basic battle mechanics
I've never clearly known how the battle mechanics work. I've only very partial information gained from the forums. I think it would be simple and prudent to at least confirm that small stacks work as expected as a positive control in these experiments.

I'm a bit confused as to many of the results presented here. One the one hand, we have neutral stacks rolling a unusually large amount of 1's. On the other, we have attackers who's die rolls are in line with expectations. Clearly, there is something wrong with our initial assumption on how rolls are calculated. For now, I would lean towards viewing the results where multiple 1's were observed as an anomaly. Until it can be repeated of course.

on the possibility of 2 dice roll
I wasn't referring to the critical roll though my memory could be misleading me as to the original post where I saw this. We'd need to look at a distribution of damage rolls to get a clear picture of how they are calculated.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 15:17

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Your loses should be the same according to battle mechanics in faq.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 15:52

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 15:17

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Your loses should be the same according to battle mechanics in faq.

No, because luck is involded.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 16:12

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 15:52

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 15:17

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Your loses should be the same according to battle mechanics in faq.

No, because luck is involded.

Omg, ffs. Read faq how criticals are counted, if you do not understand what I have said.

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 16:13

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 16:12

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 15:52

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 15:17

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Your loses should be the same according to battle mechanics in faq.

No, because luck is involded.

Omg, ffs. Read faq how criticals are counted, if you do not understand what I have said.

Luck is not limited to criticl, dice rolls are random too.

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 16:34

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 16:13

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 16:12

Napisano przez Cpt.Magic, 25.03.2014 at 15:52

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 15:17

Napisano przez Grimm, 25.03.2014 at 14:42

Napisano przez ifinishlast, 25.03.2014 at 13:56

It's all in faq: http://atwar-game.com/home/faq.php?faq_id=17

Battle mechanics
Unit's Attack and Defence represent the maximum amount of damage you deal to the opponent. Attack and defence are executed simultaneosly, so you're guaranteed to deal some damage in a battle. Each unit has Hit points - so damage is applied directly to Hit points, and if the unit runs out of them, it gets destroyed. The remaining damage is then transferred to the next unit.

So, for example, 1 Tank (9 HP) attacks 1 Infantry (8 HP) and 1 Militia (7 HP). Tank deals 6 damage (attacking), Infantry deals 4 damage (defending). Now Tank has 5 HP left and Infantry 2 HP. Tanks now deals 3 damage and Infantry also 5. Tank dies, Infantry dies, Militia takes 1 damage, but survives to fight another day. After the battle all HP is restored for surving units.

Yes, yes. I'm familiar with that & understand it.
It's just that your previous post seemed to indicate that not all units in a larger stack would participate in a battle at once. Specifically, you indicated that 10, 100 or 1000 bombers should all lose an average of 10 bombers when attacking 10 INF. I'm pretty sure this is not the case; your losses should decrease as you increase the number of bombers (following a logarithmic curve). Am I wrong? Or did I just misunderstand your post?

Your loses should be the same according to battle mechanics in faq.

No, because luck is involded.

Omg, ffs. Read faq how criticals are counted, if you do not understand what I have said.

Luck is not limited to criticl, dice rolls are random too.

That's why there is such a thing as statistics.

EDIT: we believe that's rolls are not totally random after all.

Napisano przez zombieyeti, 25.03.2014 at 17:10

While no 'roll' in this game is going to be 'random' (it is instead pseudorandom), I am curious:
- Who is 'we', and upon what are your beliefs based?
- How are battles resolved in the nonrandom universe?
- Do you have additional experimental data to share?