Zionism is the best ideology

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 19:16

"Moreover, the practice of "mapping Israel" was not only a practice of technologies of surveying, much recent research and documentation has shown. It was predicated upon the active displacement of its earlier residents. The destruction of Palestinian houses within occupied territories-according to data released by the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories," or B'Tselem, numbering some 4,170 Palestinian homes as of 2000, in a process that extended back to the beginning of those territories occupation in 1967. The homes of some 1,400 residences were demolished during the first two decades of the occupation after 1967; another 700 were destroyed by way of reprisal at the time during the four years of first "intifada," and another 600 since then through 2004. (According to Middle East Watch, the only other country in the world to have demolished homes as a form of punishment was the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein.) The stakes are high. Only after the March of Return to Independence Day of 2002 did agreement emerge to identify with Arabic names Palestinian villages that had existed in Israel before 1948, as well as their Hebrew names; many were taken by surprise by this strange proposal as late as 2000. The "other" side of the narrative of Israel's settlement is presented in this 2012 map of the diminishing expanse of land occupied by Palestinians from 1897 up until the present. The below map cannot capture the human cost of displacement of some 5 million Palestinian refugees from the 1948 and 1967 wars and their descendants, now living in Jordan, Libya, and Syria, as well as the West Bank; it cannot adequately present the moment of the expulsion of Palestinian people from the former Palestine, still commemorated on May 15 as the Nakba Day [يوم الن], or the Day of Catastrophe, as a day of tragic loss of regional autonomy and land-ownership."




Stop cherry picking data, this information was in the same page that your picture.
any individual with a brain can see that Arabs owned more land than the jews and british combined.

I don't understand why this is relevant, I gave statistics from 1945.

EDIT: I didn't post a link to any page so I don't see how I could be cherrypicking data. I just gave a picture and some area statistics. The picture is official British land ownership statistics combined with one source from Wikipedia about the size of Beersheba District.

EDIT II: I don't see how this is relevant anyways how much land the Palestinians actually owned in 1948, there was still no Palestinian state.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 21:18

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 19:16

"Moreover, the practice of "mapping Israel" was not only a practice of technologies of surveying, much recent research and documentation has shown. It was predicated upon the active displacement of its earlier residents. The destruction of Palestinian houses within occupied territories-according to data released by the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories," or B'Tselem, numbering some 4,170 Palestinian homes as of 2000, in a process that extended back to the beginning of those territories occupation in 1967. The homes of some 1,400 residences were demolished during the first two decades of the occupation after 1967; another 700 were destroyed by way of reprisal at the time during the four years of first "intifada," and another 600 since then through 2004. (According to Middle East Watch, the only other country in the world to have demolished homes as a form of punishment was the Iraqi government of Saddam Hussein.) The stakes are high. Only after the March of Return to Independence Day of 2002 did agreement emerge to identify with Arabic names Palestinian villages that had existed in Israel before 1948, as well as their Hebrew names; many were taken by surprise by this strange proposal as late as 2000. The "other" side of the narrative of Israel's settlement is presented in this 2012 map of the diminishing expanse of land occupied by Palestinians from 1897 up until the present. The below map cannot capture the human cost of displacement of some 5 million Palestinian refugees from the 1948 and 1967 wars and their descendants, now living in Jordan, Libya, and Syria, as well as the West Bank; it cannot adequately present the moment of the expulsion of Palestinian people from the former Palestine, still commemorated on May 15 as the Nakba Day [يوم الن], or the Day of Catastrophe, as a day of tragic loss of regional autonomy and land-ownership."




Stop cherry picking data, this information was in the same page that your picture.
any individual with a brain can see that Arabs owned more land than the jews and british combined.

I don't understand why this is relevant, I gave statistics from 1945.

EDIT: I didn't post a link to any page so I don't see how I could be cherrypicking data. I just gave a picture and some area statistics. The picture is official British land ownership statistics combined with one source from Wikipedia about the size of Beersheba District.

the size of the Beersheba is irrelevant as it only inflates the data given, if you remove it from the stats and make a table you will notice that Arabs owned in most areas more than the british and jews combined at the exception of some particular areas:


Regions: Percentage owned by Arabs

ACRE: 87%
Safad: 68%
Tiberias: 51%
Nazareth: 52%
Haifa: 42% [Arabs are a minority]
Beisan: 44% [Arabs are a minority]
Jenin: 87%
Turkarm: 78%
Nablus: 87%
Jaffa: 47% [Arabs are a minority]
Ramle: 77%
Gaza: 75%
Hebron: 96%
Jerusalem: 84%
Ramallah: 99%

Why did you lie to me about the amount of land owned by the british and jews? you said most was british public land brought by jews, which is clear bullshit if you actually do the math, 54% of the land being public owned? hahahhahahaha didn't you take a proper math course? you are not suppose to average proportions, with this i can clearly see that you are 14-16 year old jewish that most likely supports zionism and doesn't even know what the fuck zionism is in first place.

i am sure that this:

and this:

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 14:39

Revisionist Zionism is the cancer that plagues Zionism in which you support the murder or forced deportation of Palestinians.

is enough to meet your criteria of revisionist zionism, therefore i can claim that israel in order to obtain all the land that they have right now had to use a doctrine of revised zionism.

I averaged them out because I couldn't find any statistics on the size of the land, I guesstimated that they average out very similarly which I still believe is correct. The size of Beersheba is relevant, because the map you provided (which I debunked, but you had the nerve to post again) uses it to make the amount of Palestinian land look way larger than it actually is. It uses the incorrect assumption that land not owned by Jews is owned by Palestinians, when I gave proof that most of it was, in fact, owned by the British government.

As for the Palestinian exodus, there is more than one cause for it. It wasn't all "Jewish expulsion".
As for you second map, I already completely debunked it, why the fuck would you post it again?

And stop with the fucking ad hominem it is annoying as fuck.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

I averaged them out because I couldn't find any statistics on the size of the land, I guesstimated that they average out very similarly which I still believe is correct. The size of Beersheba is relevant, because the map you provided (which I debunked, but you had the nerve to post again) uses it to make the amount of Palestinian land look way larger than it actually is. It uses the incorrect assumption that land not owned by Jews is owned by Palestinians, when I gave proof that most of it was, in fact, owned by the British government.

hahahaha, why are you lying again? you didn't debunked the picture, the goal of the picture was to show you how Arabs went from owning more than 60% of the land to owning a few enclaves

Palestinian Lost of Land


Native American Lost of Land



Deja Vu?

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

As for the Palestinian exodus, there is more than one cause for it. It wasn't all "Jewish expulsion".
As for you second map, I already completely debunked it, why the fuck would you post it again?

pointing out some flaws in it is irrelevant compared to goal of showing the lost of palestine land over time.

Now can you answer my questions? you are starting to contradict yourself, i am worry that you will start trying to hide the fact that israel practices a "Extreme" Way of Zionism, which we both know is the evolution of "normal" zionism.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

And stop with the fucking ad hominem it is annoying as fuck.

"Ad hominem" is when i attack you in order to descredit your argument or when i try to flip attention from the topic to you.

claiming that you are a idiot for ignoring data that is provided to you and lack of mathematical skills isn't "Ad hominem". as it doesn't affect the status of the argument.

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 22:34

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

I averaged them out because I couldn't find any statistics on the size of the land, I guesstimated that they average out very similarly which I still believe is correct. The size of Beersheba is relevant, because the map you provided (which I debunked, but you had the nerve to post again) uses it to make the amount of Palestinian land look way larger than it actually is. It uses the incorrect assumption that land not owned by Jews is owned by Palestinians, when I gave proof that most of it was, in fact, owned by the British government.

hahahaha, why are you lying again? you didn't debunked the picture, the goal of the picture was to show you how Arabs went from owning more than 60% of the land to owning a few enclaves

Palestinian Lost of Land


Native American Lost of Land



Deja Vu?

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

As for the Palestinian exodus, there is more than one cause for it. It wasn't all "Jewish expulsion".
As for you second map, I already completely debunked it, why the fuck would you post it again?

pointing out some flaws in it is irrelevant compared to goal of showing the lost of palestine land over time.

Now can you answer my questions? you are starting to contradict yourself, i am worry that you will start trying to hide the fact that israel practices a "Extreme" Way of Zionism, which we both know is the evolution of "normal" zionism.

Except the first picture is incorrect because it lists a lot of land as "Palestinian" which was, in fact, public land. And again, no Palestinian state has ever existed before. The term Palestinian is a relatively modern term. The last map is the first time Palestinians ever had autonomy ever.

I don't deny that Israel practices an extreme form of Zionism. I am denying that this represents all, or even the majority, of zionists.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:43

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 22:34

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

I averaged them out because I couldn't find any statistics on the size of the land, I guesstimated that they average out very similarly which I still believe is correct. The size of Beersheba is relevant, because the map you provided (which I debunked, but you had the nerve to post again) uses it to make the amount of Palestinian land look way larger than it actually is. It uses the incorrect assumption that land not owned by Jews is owned by Palestinians, when I gave proof that most of it was, in fact, owned by the British government.

hahahaha, why are you lying again? you didn't debunked the picture, the goal of the picture was to show you how Arabs went from owning more than 60% of the land to owning a few enclaves

Palestinian Lost of Land

Native American Lost of Land


Deja Vu?

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

As for the Palestinian exodus, there is more than one cause for it. It wasn't all "Jewish expulsion".
As for you second map, I already completely debunked it, why the fuck would you post it again?

pointing out some flaws in it is irrelevant compared to goal of showing the lost of palestine land over time.

Now can you answer my questions? you are starting to contradict yourself, i am worry that you will start trying to hide the fact that israel practices a "Extreme" Way of Zionism, which we both know is the evolution of "normal" zionism.

Except the first picture is incorrect because it lists a lot of land as "Palestinian" which was, in fact, public land. And again, no Palestinian state has ever existed before. The term Palestinian is a relatively modern term. The last map is the first time Palestinians ever had autonomy ever.

I don't deny that Israel practices an extreme form of Zionism. I am denying that this represents all, or even the majority, of zionists.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 13:52

Napisano przez Guest, 06.05.2014 at 13:49

Zionism is a ideology that can be related to nazism in the single fact that both try archive a general increment in living space for their own people. While nazism main core of support was fanatical germans, Zionism main core of support is mostly the jewish elite, how can you constain the virulent cancer if their core has no boundaries? How can you tell from a zionist jewish and a non-zionist jewish?

You are confusing Zionism with Revisionist Zionism. Zionism is the belief in creating a Jewish homeland to prevent further persecution. Revisionist Zionism is the cancer that plagues Zionism in which you support the murder or forced deportation of Palestinians.

Just as you can be a German nationalist without being a nazi, you can be a Zionist without being a revisionist Zionist.

with all the data provided in this topic, we can conclude that jews from 1948 onward, changed their ideology to Revisionist Zionism, which means that with the creation of israel, zionism become pointless until it evolved into Revisionist Zionism. and normal zionism won't ever come back until israel isn't a state anymore, which is most likely never. so you have to accept that what most people refer as zionism is in fact Revisionist Zionism.

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 22:49

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:43

Napisano przez UnIeashed, 06.05.2014 at 22:34

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

I averaged them out because I couldn't find any statistics on the size of the land, I guesstimated that they average out very similarly which I still believe is correct. The size of Beersheba is relevant, because the map you provided (which I debunked, but you had the nerve to post again) uses it to make the amount of Palestinian land look way larger than it actually is. It uses the incorrect assumption that land not owned by Jews is owned by Palestinians, when I gave proof that most of it was, in fact, owned by the British government.

hahahaha, why are you lying again? you didn't debunked the picture, the goal of the picture was to show you how Arabs went from owning more than 60% of the land to owning a few enclaves

Palestinian Lost of Land

Native American Lost of Land


Deja Vu?

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 22:12

As for the Palestinian exodus, there is more than one cause for it. It wasn't all "Jewish expulsion".
As for you second map, I already completely debunked it, why the fuck would you post it again?

pointing out some flaws in it is irrelevant compared to goal of showing the lost of palestine land over time.

Now can you answer my questions? you are starting to contradict yourself, i am worry that you will start trying to hide the fact that israel practices a "Extreme" Way of Zionism, which we both know is the evolution of "normal" zionism.

Except the first picture is incorrect because it lists a lot of land as "Palestinian" which was, in fact, public land. And again, no Palestinian state has ever existed before. The term Palestinian is a relatively modern term. The last map is the first time Palestinians ever had autonomy ever.

I don't deny that Israel practices an extreme form of Zionism. I am denying that this represents all, or even the majority, of zionists.

Napisano przez KYBL, 06.05.2014 at 13:52

Napisano przez Guest, 06.05.2014 at 13:49

Zionism is a ideology that can be related to nazism in the single fact that both try archive a general increment in living space for their own people. While nazism main core of support was fanatical germans, Zionism main core of support is mostly the jewish elite, how can you constain the virulent cancer if their core has no boundaries? How can you tell from a zionist jewish and a non-zionist jewish?

You are confusing Zionism with Revisionist Zionism. Zionism is the belief in creating a Jewish homeland to prevent further persecution. Revisionist Zionism is the cancer that plagues Zionism in which you support the murder or forced deportation of Palestinians.

Just as you can be a German nationalist without being a nazi, you can be a Zionist without being a revisionist Zionist.

with all the data provided in this topic, we can conclude that jews from 1948 onward, changed their ideology to Revisionist Zionism, which means that with the creation of israel, zionism become pointless until it evolved into Revisionist Zionism. and normal zionism won't ever come back until israel isn't a state anymore, which is most likely never. so you have to accept that what most people refer as zionism is in fact Revisionist Zionism.

Revisionist Zionism didn't become popular until the late 70s

>MFW Zatara was actually Tunder trolling me

Conclusion:

• There is no such thing like THE JEWS as something homogeneic. The Jewish community is so diverse like any other community (from assholes to most liberal and even libertarian people). Thus, we should talk about communities rather than community. What was being referred to is a doctrine (carried by the State and the political constituency).
  
• The political constituency of the State of Israel is definitely more heterogeneic than assumed by most of the previous comments. Again, lets not talk as if there are no contradictions within the very politicas system. Some representatives are more right-wing, conservative... others are more liberal... other believe that Palestinians should be regarded as sub-humans (sic!)... others seek for a 2 Nation solution and, in a very long future, a Federation of States. They all exist under the so-called Israeli State.
  
• On the other hand, also the Palestinians are very diverse among themselves; radical, extremists, liberal, communists, islamists, liberal, rich, poor, etc. Can we really talk about THE Palestinians or THE Jews? Rather not, cause we would be imprecise in our analysis and reproduce the very patterns of hate.
  
• Last, but not least, solutions to the precarious situation of Palestinians, the permanent attack on Israel, the need for an integral solution (of 2 States or Federation), necessarily has to include a real cease-fire, the deconstruction and devolution of portions of land to Palestinians, democratization of the region, access to water, access to education, job-creation, access to markets, etc.
  
• NO EASY PROPOSAL CAN BE TRUSTED! SPECIALLY THE ONES THAT BLAME THESE OR THOSE FOR THE SITUATION. There are many guilty politicians, head of states, landlords, rich people... that benefit from the situation and screw the normal population. Many of them sit in Israel, but also in other countries of the region (including Palestine) and the World (not only USA).

TOPIC CLOSED. THNX!