Moderation

This is a delicate topic so please lets not turn this into a flame thread of any sorts, also I hope this thread is not misplaced, but I wanted to open a discussion with the community about Moderation.

Earlier this evening I went to advertise a duel and to my surprise was muted on Global. Now this has happened to me before and I have been told in the past it was a miss-click from a Mod. So I assumed it was just that again but to my surprise again when I pmed a mod about it I found out it was no accident I was muted, and it was for 7 days! So I of course asked what the mute was for and what happened was, someone asked me to play a tourney game over global chat, and I responded on Global chat saying I could not play tourney.

Now this is against the rules I guess, as Global chat is only for advertising. However, I had never explicitly been told this before and I see many members of the community talk on global frequently. It was a single message I sent, far from being spam. I also received no "warning" was a first time offender, and was not even notified or told reason for mute.

I am not here to argue about the mute, its fine and I think Mods work very hard and I appreciate what they do. But I just wanted to share this because I think there can be a little better communication between moderators and players. Such as, I think a warning before a mute would be a good practice. A 7 day mute for a first time "offender" seems a tad harsh to me. And I think a player should be notified the reason for their muting and not just left to guessing or pming a mod to find out. If someone has not abused chat before why not talk to them about it instead of just muting them?

What are everyones thoughts on this? The goal should be to eliminate spam, but also not hurt active players who are just trying to enjoy the game.

Havemt read in full, but i largely agree that theres needs to be better communication with established players.. guests can get stuffed, they're mostly trolls and its no surprise when they're muted... but guys that play frequently and are clearly not out to break rules ...such as Prometheus, deserve a bit more than just a generic 7 day ban for an offense that... to be honest could easily have just been an accident, plenty of players accidently type in the wrong chat box after posting a legit advert etc... and a lot of guys troll in global... yet the trolls get away with it and prom gets punished....

I expect you'll be unmuted soon

I agree. You clearly broke the rules, but there should have been some form of warning b4hand.

Napisano przez Phoenix, 08.02.2016 at 21:23

The trolls get away with it and prom gets punished....

This, very true in a lot of instances.

I agree there should be a better communication between mods and players, but what can you do when mods have a personality such as emare (when he was mod) or meester.

i suggest next time you have issues with a mod, just pm one of admins or just another mod to whom you have good communication

Napisano przez AlBoZzZ, 08.02.2016 at 21:29

I agree there should be a better communication between mods and players,

Napisano przez AlBoZzZ, 08.02.2016 at 21:29

but what can you do when mods have a personality such as emare (when he was mod) or meester.

I would never put e Mare and Meester in same cage. I had troubles with Meestee before, many hard words from both sides, but in some time we got each other more properly. Very understandible and helpful person, especially if you go in more individual interract with him as inbox or PRs. Also, with many great ideas as trophy looks, BanHammer, ....
While e Mare was just for a 180° degrees different who just didn't want to realize that more powers doesn't mean more reasons to use them.
I won't touch him anymore because no point of commenting on someone who became rarely active.

To make more sense I am saying this right after Meester reasonably muted me on global

Napisano przez AlBoZzZ, 08.02.2016 at 21:29

i suggest next time you have issues with a mod, just pm one of admins or just another mod to whom you have good communication

Http://imgur.com/AeupkMX
I would just like to document some of the Meester's recent behavior that I don't feel is aligned with the mission that the admins are probably aiming for with atwar. A few weeks ago I noticed that I was muted on global, I had no idea why, or who had muted me. After asking every mod why I was muted, I was told that Meester muted me. For what reason? I don't know. I don't think it should be standard protocol to mute players for 10,000 minutes without a warning or a reason. Today Meester muted 4 people. He initially muted Hippolas cage for displaying an emoji in global. Then when I mentioned in global that it isn't fair or right to immediately mute people in global, he muted me. Neither my message, or Hippolas cage's message warranted a mute.

Attached in the imgur link are relevent screenshots. This is now the second time meester has muted me; and to be quite frank, I'm really getting tired of him abusing his moderator powers. I am a lifetime member who does not harrass players, and is not someone toxic towards fellow atwar players. If meester retains his moderator privileges I will be very pessimistic about the direction atwar is heading because it will be apparent that the moderators are not interested in stimulating this communities growth. Thank you

I was also just muted, and I also was not aware of this rule. Very frequently, I see global chat used by players to have conversations, so there needs to be some more clarity around this rule.

There isn't much to add to what Felkenator is saying. Miscommunication is probably the culprit here, as this rule isn't common knowledge (Prometheus and Felkenator are both highly active albiet newer players -and although I'm not very active I've been around for a while- and none of us knew of this rule until now).

That being said, the rule makes sense in concept, but I have an issue with it. There aren't nearly enough players in AtWar to merit the mods effectively being turned into bots that mute any player who makes a non-advertisement post in global. Mods are there because they provide the judgement only capable by a human or A.I. program. When mods cease to be a moderating force (guess that's where it gets the name) and instead turn into emotionally charged ban-hammers, then they cease to be a helpful component in the community.

Spamming is an issue to be sure, I won't argue that. However, global chat is reserved as a privilege for players who feel strongly enough about this game that they contribute. It's not very good practice to mute anyone for a week because of one post in global, let alone without a warning, but blatant misuse of power is repeating the action multiple times in a row without even an attempt to check if there is an underlying issue.

This doesn't need to be a witch-hunt, but you don't put out a fire by throwing tissue paper on it.

Napisano przez Felkenator, 08.02.2016 at 22:32

Http://imgur.com/AeupkMX
I would just like to document some of the Meester's recent behavior that I don't feel is aligned with the mission that the admins are probably aiming for with atwar. A few weeks ago I noticed that I was muted on global, I had no idea why, or who had muted me. After asking every mod why I was muted, I was told that Meester muted me. For what reason? I don't know. I don't think it should be standard protocol to mute players for 10,000 minutes without a warning or a reason. Today Meester muted 4 people. He initially muted Hippolas cage for displaying an emoji in global. Then when I mentioned in global that it isn't fair or right to immediately mute people in global, he muted me. Neither my message, or Hippolas cage's message warranted a mute.

Attached in the imgur link are relevent screenshots. This is now the second time meester has muted me; and to be quite frank, I'm really getting tired of him abusing his moderator powers. I am a lifetime member who does not harrass players, and is not someone toxic towards fellow atwar players. If meester retains his moderator privileges I will be very pessimistic about the direction atwar is heading because it will be apparent that the moderators are not interested in stimulating this communities growth. Thank you

Global isn't for complaining. Global isn't for emoji. Both warranted a mute.

It goes to show you, if you appear to be joining in when everyone is abusing, you'll get the same amount. This should make everyone involved think twice before joining in again later. Even if you have had no bad behavior before, it's the same with real life "riots," we can compare the situations. Both scenarios show it must be dealt with severely or it'll start again later. Anyone involved must be punished. So if this "Hippolas cage" posts in global, and others even give the appearance of following, no doubt you'll be dealt with if a moderator is online and sees it.

@topic

If nothing else is happening in global, like normal game advertisement etc, then yeah you should get a warning, maybe a pr from a mod. That is, unless they think you've abused before, then the stakes get a much higher. From the moderators console in game, we cannot add reasons to mutes, only from the website itself. So usually when we mute in game(the fastest way), we assume you know what you did. This may cause miscommunication, because like much of the game, the moderators are also waiting for more features in html5.

In all cases, things will naturally go like this:
Abuse -> Mute

1st time abuse/no history -> Warning
Known previous abuse history -> Large mutes (or permanent mutes)
Participation in mass abuse -> Large mutes across the board, it doesn't matter who

In all cases, if you have a problem with your mute, talk to the moderator who muted you. Another moderator will not adjust the mute unless they intend to or have talked to other moderators and are in agreement. This prevents conflicts, as not all moderators have the entire story in most situations.

Here is an example of Meester being disrespectful towards his community
http://imgur.com/kwHWYqS

Where does it state that global is only for game advertisement? All I said was Meester is abusing his powers in global chat by muting people. No warning, no private message; just a mute. The rules are not clear. I am losing interest in this game very quickly if Meester's behavior is being supported

Let me respond to everyone's message at one go and then proceed to lock this thread.

2.5. Global channel is for advertising games and game related information (community events, tournaments, etc.) ... Avoid any unrelated comment on any of these three channels.

I've only ever muted player who have broke this rule. If a player can prove their message was an accident or if I can clearly see a message was an accident I let it slip. However if the message clearly looks likes it was sent on purpose, I am much more harsh.

Now let's break it down.

Prometheus was muted for this string of messages:

[2016-02-08 19:45:58.7651] Info: Global

, Bernie sander [67426]: prometheus tourney?
[2016-02-08 19:49:22.6699] Info: Global

, Prometheus [1021518]: I dont burn for bernie and I cant play tourney now

Was the message intended for global?
Yes, the message followed 4 seconds after a message by a previous player targeting said player.

Has the player broke any rules before?
Yes, the player has 1 mute from November of last year.

Has the player been playing for long enough to be familiar with the game rules?
Yes.

Does the player hold a vital role in the community that could tarnish the games reputation?*
Yes, the player is a supporter.

Has the player broken any other rule in conjunction with the above rule?*
No.

Therefore a semi-harsh mute is well deserved.

Felkenator and Hippolas Cage was muted for this string of messages:

[2016-02-08 22:09:59.9952] Info: Global

, ?Mecoy [627428]: why don't you mute the 100 other people abusing global then
[2016-02-08 22:10:11.4758] Info: Global

, Hippolas Cage [232476]: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°
[2016-02-08 22:11:55.1465] Info: Global

, Felkenator [514470]: Making the lenny face in global once doesn't warrant a 10040 minute mute
[2016-02-08 22:14:17.0743] Info: Global

, Admiral Naismith [286283]: Meester muting everyone for nothing. Just abusing his powers like a child.

Was the message intended for global?
Mecoy's message perhaps not. Hippolas Cage's message was only seconds after Mecoy message about mutes, clearly the message was intended for global. Felkenator and Admiral Naismith's(his alt) message were clearly intended for global.

Has the player broke any rules before?
Yes, global abuse in the past, however this mute was shortened.

Has the player been playing for long enough to be familiar with the game rules?
Yes, 2 years is plenty of time.

Does the player hold a vital role in the community that could tarnish the games reputation?*
No.

Has the player broken any other rule in conjunction with the above rule?*
Yes, the player has used an alternate with the purpose of breaking the same rule he just broke.

Therefore a harsh mute is well deserved.

---

Now Prometheus's mute has since been lowered seeing as how the mute in November did appear to be a mistake. Felkenator and his alternate's punishment however will stick as they has no only broken 1 rule but 2.

Locked.
I'll leave this open for abit.

Desu, you need to calm down, take a step back, and think about this rationally. No one is trying to attack the moderators, there is no "riot."

Players are being muted for a week without warning and as a first offense for a rule that has not been made apparent to the community. I am all for the enforcement of the rules, that's how a game is kept clean, but I am also for accountability. If we aren't holding moderators to a standard (i.e. letting them ban players en mass with no consequence) then how do you expect the community to trust them?

If you want to take the despotic, no-mercy approach that you're laying forward, then expect people to lash out when they get muted with no warning for crossing a line that they never knew existed.

I respect where you're coming from with your point of view, but you need to take a step back from the keyboard and think for a moment. If you were in the same position as us, seeing people who have been trying to make the environment of this game as friendly and non-toxic as possible, seeing those people being treated like they're maliciously trying to bring down the game that they clearly support passionately. How would you feel?

Again, step back from the computer for a minute; maybe go look for some integrity, because shooting down players without a second thought as if they are the worst scum, and not treating things on a case-by-case basis in this small of a community is ignorant and unsustainable.

Meester, you are incorrect in thinking that Felkenator and I are alternate accounts.

First of all, I've been playing much longer than he has.

Second, we have played many quick games at the same time.

You are only proving the point that you are not giving warnings to players. It is your place as a moderator to inform others and make the game environment run smoothly, not to ban players whose accounts you have not even bothered to look at.

The mute you laid on me was the first I've had, and you never sent me a warning. Take your appointment as moderator more seriously.

An appropriate protocol from a moderator regarding improper global usage:

1. A perpetrator sends a message to global that doesn't comply with the 'rules'
2. A moderator sends a private message to said perpetrator that global is for advertisement
3. Problem solved

OR
1. A perpetrator sends a message to global that doesn't comply with the 'rules'
2. A moderator sends a private message to said perpetrator that global is for advertisement
3. Perpetrator says something else in global that is not related to game advertisement
4. Mute player

This seems fair. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Atwar is the game that I choose to spend my time playing. If the moderators are going to act like a bunch of A-holes I'm going to just quit and never come back to this game and spend my time/money elsewhere.

I can assure you Meester takes moderating much more seriously than most of the mods atm, he is one of the few active mods. I think you guys willingly misread the thread. This isn't an attack on a specific mod (or else it'd be locked, which it was because you guys made it so, but Meester was kind enough to keep it open for people to reply) rather a discussion on moderation. A.K.A harshness, moderation style, etc. If anyone wants a reason to be considered, you should make a logical and analytical argument about certain moderation style instead of taking the opportunity to attempt to crap on a mod because they've muted you before.

Now, this thread is healthy, every now and then players and mods alike need a reminder about game rules, general conduct, etc. However, when people take the opportunity to make comments like this:

Napisano przez Felkenator, 08.02.2016 at 22:59

Here is an example of Meester being disrespectful towards his community
http://imgur.com/kwHWYqS

this thread turns to garbage in a rapid rate, and yes, I chose the worst quote to show, and they're not all like that.

Again, if you have an issue with a mod, PM him. If you have a valuable contribution about moderation or a suggestion about how to deal with things in the future, post it here.

Cheers!

[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: and all I did was call you out for abusing your mutes without warnings
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: you need to warn people before you mute them, there is a reason why prometheus made that thread today, because you mute without warning
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: don't you see that as a problem?
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: I'm not the only one who sees this as an issue that you created
[pr] ~Meester: when a person commits a murder they dont get warned allowed to commit another and then trilled
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: you are comparing my message in global to murder
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: do you not see anything wrong with that?
[pr] ~Meester: its the same in any court of law
[pr] ~Meester: speeding? same thing happens
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: You are comparing dangerous activities, such as speeding and murder to a message in a global chat room
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: do you see the difference yet?
[pr] ~Meester: its the same in any court of law
[pr] ~Meester: anyway i have no need to quarrel with you your punishment will stick
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: you are not in a court of law, you are a nerd who is a moderator in a dying video game
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: you are not helping this community by ousting me
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: my message in global did not make anyone mad, or make anyone think I am spamming
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: you muting me without warning made me mad. And I will probably quit this game
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: I bet you would like that
[pr] Felkenator: ~Meester: but I will be just another player that atwar lost, and it will be your fault
[pr] ~Meester: not my problem you cant read so idc

I am clearly not valued as a player in atwar even though I purchased a lifetime membership and have only been positive in this community. I won't be logging back on this game. I sincerely hope an admin sees this thread and deals with meester accordingly

My 2 cents on the subject:
1) make the chat box better, It happens to me all the time to send a message to the wrong chanel as it s not clear enough where u send the message (typically u type a ad on global and chat with someone privately at the same time you will almost inevitably end up sending a message on global by mistake)
2) I played many many online games and
a)I dont recall moderation ever being an issue like it is here b) there are A LOT of moderators compared to player base maybe a) and b) are correlated c) moderation is usually mostly focused on profanities, on atwar u can say whatever u want on room chat and never get bothered, yet a minor offense like Prom is an instant 7 days mute... I absolutely love how he was considered a repeat offender on the basis of a "mistake", sounds like USA justice system to me )
Cheers
Edit: I always come back to online poker exemple as it is typically what professional online gaming website looks like. A moderator is only CALLED by users if they want his intervention, in other words no complaint, no mod action... Atwar seems to be like the farwest with wild zealous sheriffs shooting first asking queations later. Not exactly what justice looks like, at least not outside the USA